The Emotional Museum: Ambivalence

How do you feel when you step into a museum? It’s rarely a simple answer. 

Through ‘The Emotional Museum’, a team of University of Glasgow researchers untangle the complex and often overlooked feelings evoked by collections and the spaces that hold them. 

Moving beyond the labels and the glass cases, we ask: what do these objects really do to us? 

From joy to exhaustion and from anger to ambivalence, join us as we explore the full spectrum of feelings that museums provoke. 

What do our emotional responses to collections reveal about power, identity and belonging? And how might reckoning with these emotions help us build more honest and accountable museums? 

In this episode, Fara, John and Zaki discuss feelings of ambivalence.

Transcript

JOHN

In a way, the ambivalent emotion can be a good thing because it makes you think a lot more. And having that conflict, like for me, in my own experience, has been good because it's been very educational for me and it's allowed me to kind of get a bigger experience and a bigger understanding of what I'm engaging with.

ZANDRA

The Emotional Museum is a series of conversations exploring what we feel when we enter museum spaces.

Through intimate conversations, we unpack the emotions that surface among objects, stories, and silence - how memory, identity and power shape our experiences of museums, and how museums shape us in return.

In this episode, Fara, John and Zaki discuss feelings of ambivalence.

FARA

So we thought that we'd start the podcast by giving a definition of ambivalence.

ZAKI

Okay, so yeah, Oxford Dictionary definition of ambivalent: having mixed feelings or contradictory ideas about something or someone.

JOHN

And this is a good thing that we think to underpin early because - certainly myself, during my own research – I found myself getting the idea of ambivalence confused quite often with feelings of apathy or indifference, sort of in the way that two conflicting emotions almost cancel each other out so you feel nothing. I think it would be good for us to maybe begin by discussing what ambivalence is to us, how we feel about that, is it this feeling of nothingness? Is it a feeling of being on the fence or in between two different emotions? Or is it something completely different?

FARA

It's not a feeling of nothing. To me, it's more like I feel like I'm being pulled in different directions – like, I almost have such an overwhelm of emotions that I don't know, don't know even how to place a single emotion. It then feels like a bit numb and unemotional, but it's actually very emotional. It's like almost too intense to place the emotion.

ZAKI

The only kind of context I ever used ambivalence is in social work. So, you talk about attachment theory, which is about how all humans in your very infancy, about who your primary caregiver is, and you talk about secure or insecure attachments - ambivalence is like one of the insecure attachment forms. Which is like - if you imagine your primary carer when you're a little infant just born, ambivalent attachment talks about where the baby can't predict how the carer is going to be towards them. 

So, they mix, the ambivalent attachment is about how a baby or infant would literally kind of not know how to respond to the carer, or whether the carer is going to actually respond to their own needs. And that's the only concept I ever heard ambivalence used before, which is, so, that thing of being mixed or contradictory, like contradictory behaviours, contradictory feelings, that was what first came into my mind when we said we’ll talk about ambivalence but that's just - that's just my background.

JOHN

I think the key thing that we're all coming up with here is this idea of a conflict, of contradiction, of two things kind of working against each other, right? Rather than there being a sort of empty zone of emotion that isn't really existing. It's more like a product of two things conflicting to such a degree that we want to think about nothing, maybe in the instance to kind of stop what's going on.

I've certainly felt that way myself. Yeah, I think also for me, those sort of feelings, it's like it's a desire to feel one thing and for it to be really clear and to have like clarity of emotion, whatever way that goes, so it can be, it can end up quite overwhelming, I think, when you're kind of like fighting to feel one thing and you can't feel one thing because it's, like you say Fara, it's a complete kind of conflict between two different things.

FARA

And that makes it uncomfortable as well.

JOHN

Absolutely, yeah.

ZAKI

I was thinking of it, as we prepare for today, I was thinking of it as that, if it's like that attachment theory thing I was talking about, I was thinking about how like growing up, museums were always part of an education space, so either school visits or family taking you somewhere to learn about our history or the history. I was thinking how similar to the attachment stuff, if there's like, if something's an abusive relationship, like how you don't know how to feel about that because they're the ones that raised you. 

So, I was thinking like kind of in the museum thing, for me, maybe if something about the museum has been part of the education system I've been brought up through and I'm not sure that education system has not abused or exploited in the past. So, the sense of feeling like, I'm not sure how I feel in this space or I feel a mix because if I point the finger like in the museum or the education system, you have kind of abused a lot of knowledges to try and make me think one way when there's so many stories.

That's how I was kind of feeling about it was in there for this session was maybe the ambivalence is that feeling of the relationship with the museum or museums and the education system is what initially, no matter what's in the museum, is the first bit that makes me certainly feel like I feel mixed about this, being in this space.

FARA

But it's also a very, museums are trying to communicate a very specific narrative. As a person of colour walking into a museum space, it's purposefully excluding our experiences. It's quite weird to walk into, or to enter a museum space, observe an exhibition, observing objects, and then to kind of take in the beauty of the art, the craftsmanship, the skill that goes into creating an object or making a painting, or to see what's the narrative that's being presented in the painting, like a family portrait or whatever.

You're also, as a person of colour, you're very aware of maybe a narrative that's not being explored or explicitly being discussed in like the plaque next to it. And that's quite uncomfortable and it doesn't sit well with me. Yeah, there's like a lot of emotions that come together in that moment where I'm like, I feel guilty enjoying this. And you're also, like it's like you said with the education system, you're aware of like, what are they trying to drill into me right now?

JOHN

I wonder if either of you would feel open to expressing maybe specific moments where you felt this sort of ambivalence that you've just described, whether it's on some of the research trips that we've done for this project or in your own kind of personal experiences.

ZAKI

Definitely. Sorry, jumping straight in. Definitely, I'd say like, because our research group, we're also like a mix of class and race and gender. So, I think some of it is also like being on that journey together and becoming a team of people going ahead. But it's also we're navigating our own power dynamics between each other. We're not all people of colour. We're not, you know, we're, like I said, a mix of genders, mix of sexes, mix of class, mix of race and ethnicity. 

So, even that in itself as a research group, I felt like I'm working out what's okay and not okay to express in the emotions. But I remember feeling that really clearly when we did the Black History walking tour of Glasgow with CRER, the Coalition for Race, Equality and Rights. Yeah, that's it - Coalition for Race, Equality and Rights - the walking tour. I remember feeling like, a bit liberated, that it was outside rather than in an enclosed space.

There's something about museums and in carceral approaches or incarceration of ancestral materials and remains that, being outside, for me, I thought, this feels good. It's like it's liberated. Yet at the same time, your eyes being open to these monuments and detail the monuments and also the absence of - and then feeling like I'm not sure how I feel about this, because that was like one of our first outings as a research group together and there's a lot in that packed or condensed in like an hour and a half.

So yeah, I actually remember thinking in that experience, for example, we're looking at the Livingstone Memorial? Yeah. So, the Livingstone Memorial, just the images on the north-south and east, west face of that.

You know, we're looking at the enslavement of human beings, particularly African human beings, and we're looking at the glorification of someone who's seen as like a really key figure in Scottish history. And yet I also know the one who opened up colonialism to Central Africa of the European colonialism.

So, just, I think that example was feeling a little, a weird mix of anchored and anchorless feeling like, oh, this is, we're here, we're learning about Glasgow, we're here together but also not knowing each other yet.

FARA

No, that's good. I'd be interested - because I know when we were doing that walk - because I didn't grow up in the Scottish education system, but I know, John, you were mentioning that your understanding of him was maybe slightly different? Or, I know that you also have done your own research in the past, so, or how was he portrayed when you went to school?

JOHN

Yeah, well, he's very highly venerated, David Livingstone, in the Scottish education system. He's seen as this kind of ideal British civilizing figure, one of these kind of so-called ‘heroes of empire’ who spreads enlightenment, mostly Christian enlightenment, but general kind of societal enlightenment, if you will, to these sort of quote unquote ‘backwater’ areas in the world that they desperately are in dire need of things like European Western education, that sort of thing, medicine, even down to things like clothing.

And for me, seeing the prominence of his monument and how he stands and where it is, and the kind of like reverence that's afforded by it, just through the use of space, is very indicative of his position within Scottish education. This sort of idea that if we were involved in imperialism, it's either tangential in the case that we were kind of forced into it by the English, or we were only involved in the positive aspects of it.

And it's something that, you know, I think every Scottish person, especially white Scottish person - like me - wants to believe that we know that that's not the truth, and we know every single avenue and example of how that isn't true.

But I found myself, there was a section where we talked about the clearances, the Highland Clearances, and that's, you know, a term that's particularly kind of horrific for Scottish people, especially people who grow up in like rural areas, a lot more rural than me. And then obviously the kind of, the idea that a lot of the people, a lot of the victims of the Highland Clearances, in fact, then went on to themselves become, you know, agents of imperialism elsewhere, participate in the British Empire abroad, and in some instances even enact very similar things on Native Americans and First Nations people and so on, that was enacted onto them in the first place.

And that was something that I remember very strong feelings of ambivalence coming up, because there's a sort of sense of, I think, guilt and frustration at yourself and not knowing that that's the truth.

I mean, you'd think in retrospect, it's very easy to join the dots between those two things, given the time frame, given the people that were involved. But it would just been never, it'd never been something that I'd put together by myself. So, it was kind of hard to understand how I didn't already know it or that it wasn't part of what we were told about the clearances in school. So that's the same tour that you were talking about, Zaki, that very strongly came up for me.

FARA

Yeah, that's interesting because you're reckoning with both having this realisation and then also the frustration of maybe not being aware of that earlier - and that's also hard to grapple with those two emotions. I'm not a historian in any way, I'm a biochemist, so all these conversations are quite new to me, and I've been learning a lot through all of our visits, and I have that as well, where I'm like, I have the realisation, and then I'm personally frustrated that I didn't maybe have a deep enough understanding of the historical context.

ZAKI

I think what's interesting for listening to you both talk, there's also that, the questioning of the self, like what, John, you were you talking about, and how important that is. And maybe that's also part of feeling ambivalent, is because maybe this is, for some of us, maybe that was our first encounter.

Clearly you knew something about this before, John, but for some of us, and I'm sure a lot of, particularly white Scots, but also other people in Scotland, that's a first encounter with that kind of, the globalism of the clearances and the double or triple violences of the clearances. So, maybe it's also a kind of, yeah, ambivalent because it's like, oh, I've not questioned myself or my people or my place before. Maybe it's that encounter with the imperialist reality that really is just, if you're seasoned in exploring that, maybe you're not going to feel ambivalent.

Maybe it's totally, like, okay to feel a mix of emotions about that because it's about so much more than the monument or the museum. It's about you and your place in the world. And so, I really, you know, I really, I learned a lot on that trip from our discussions.

JOHN

Some of the things that comes up for me as well, which is maybe, it's a little bit of an unfair thing to say, but as somebody who grew up quite rurally, when I see the kind of the huge like multi-million pound centres that are created here, right, the proliferation of museums, these gigantic kind of monolithic buildings in the middle of cities, there's a sense of like awe and wonder there for me, right?

Like I grew up in a village of like 150 people - like, I had to drive or get on a train for hours to see anything like that. But there's a small part of me as well that's like - a lot of the people, a lot of like Scottish people in cities, a lot of them are far more exposed to this sort of thing, to the education that comes with these sort of centres. But it's in the rural areas where that sort of education isn't as strong.

And so, I always kind of get this feeling of like, man, if there was some more funding put into having institutions, even on a far smaller scale, in small and less populated areas, that would be so great. And it's this kind of like feeling of, I don't know if jealousy is like the right word to use for it, but you know what I mean? Like, sort of like, man, it's really cool that this is here – I wish they had this stuff elsewhere too.

ZAKI

I really feel you strongly on that, maybe from a different angle, which is the same sense of mixed emotions or contradictory frustration, definitely I felt in the mix with that. But I think the angle I feel you on from that is the frustration that why is this not part of all our education? Why is this material not part of an education when I was like 8 years old rather than 44?

And it's that feeling of like the who has the privilege of access to that knowledge and realising, wow, like you're talking about from the rural/urban inequalities, and I'm thinking that in Scotland at least, like the urban centres is where the global majority are living in Scotland. So, that classic thing of like where, also within the city, how many would ever have the privilege of being able to come on one of these walking tours or into a museum with like a real educational programme or a guide or something like that to really have the time that we had.

I also felt that kind of, it is definitely a jealousy in that sense of like, these people have this all the time! And I'm like, wow, that sense of inequality of the privilege we have had as researchers to go on this journey is really - so that mix of privilege and jealousy, frustration, injustice feeling is such an odd, yeah, like a tension.

FARA

Should we delve into maybe any museum experiences that anyone wants to expand on that have induced these feelings of ambivalence?

ZAKI

We've had this wonderful programme of museum visits together in our partnership with The Hunterian, and one of those most recently was the trip to Liverpool, two days. And on the second day, we had an incredible private guided tour of the International Slavery Museum in Liverpool and obviously, that was going to be a really emotional experience.

You couldn't predict how you're going to feel in that space but you'd have a pretty strong sense, and I just want to share - like I'm not going to share the whole thing but, I kind of - after like, the decompression, after we're in that space, we were, you know, we wisely put in time for decompression and you're right there on the Mersey, you know, beautiful, as well as the barbarity, it's beautiful. 

So, I'll just share, like, a little bit of the first kind of lines of this poem I wrote as I was sitting there, because I was really trying to think like, how do I feel? Cool wind and soft waves caress away the hot silence of glass to mass criminal designs, evidenced in low gloom, black holocaust entombed by the enlightenment camp. 

And I'll share more, like, in our stuff, but it's just, it was that odd, literally the emotion of like the outdoor space is actually quite calming. There's a lot of soothing going on just by being on the docks. And yet the docks were the sight of all this and the, you know, the obvious capitalist accumulation of private wealth all right in our face when we step out of the museum that is on the docks.

So just, yeah, I just want to share those lines of that particular experience was realising that it's really important to have something soothing afterwards. I wonder what you guys felt because we had this chat and that was the most recent trip. You don't have to talk about that particular one, but I'd be interested to know.

JOHN

Ambivalence was not necessarily something that came up in that tour. I think it was incredibly emotional, but in a very like firm direction for me. It was just this kind of sense, this growing sense of like disgust almost, from my perspective anyway, as a white person who likes to think they're quite switched on to this sort of thing. I think the space itself and how it was designed definitely contributed to that. I mean, there's low ceilings, very kind of dark lighting.

Again, we were there when it wasn't necessarily open to the public, so it might not look like that, but I think it added to the experience. It was, I mean, again, an ambivalent feeling in the sense it's an incredible privilege to be able to see that, and to have Miles show us around, I think, was, you know, that's an experience you don't get every day.

And I feel very privileged being part of this project and getting experiences like that, but then, obviously, on the flip side, the things that you're looking at, the things that you're learning, even because we were based on the docks, right? I mean, our hotel was there, we went out for food on the docks, and it wasn't really until the next day that I sat there and I was kind of like, man, this is all of the wealth in this area, like this specific part of the town that you can see - I know exactly where that's coming from and it's really kind of harrowing to walk around.

I did the opposite to you. I went as far away from the docks as I could. I had my lunch and I just went in the opposite direction because I was like, even sitting here after that feels weird to me. You know what I mean? That's kind of how I felt throughout the whole thing.

FARA

It was quite interesting because, our debrief immediately after we finished the private tour was, I guess you would call it ambivalence, because I didn't know how to place my emotions. And then it was very weird because usually when I go into museum spaces, one of my main feelings is ambivalence because I'm like admiring the artwork, but I'm also conflicted and frustrated and angry. And I'm usually frustrated and angry because there's a lack of transparency about what I'm looking at.

Then I personally go down a rabbit hole and I'm frustrated that maybe other people wouldn't have that same self-reflection about what they're taking in. With the ISM, I still was angry afterwards, like upon reflection, but it was a different anger and frustration, because this time it was almost like, I don't know if I want to say proud? It's essentially, it's a museum that's centering our voices, and like, it's, we're in control of the narrative.

So that was empowering. Almost like a, like, I could sigh, like, it's, you know, this is exactly what I want to see in a museum space. But then it was like, I actually had to sit with a different level of anger because then I, usually my anger is like, oh, they didn't talk about this - but this time they actually spoke about it. So, I actually had to sit with a feeling. So, it was just like a different trigger of that feeling of anger - that was like my experience of it.

So, yeah, even though I think there's aspects of the ISM that I as an experience maybe would have changed and we spoke, we were talking about that during the tour as well. But yeah, it was a feeling of ambivalence again. The trigger of the feeling of frustration and anger was different for me.

ZAKI

What you said resonates with me as well, because I think the fact, particularly those of us from the African diaspora, like, having curators, museum workers, community engagement workers who are from the African diaspora, like, that mattered. So, that sense of pride in amongst all the other feelings, I totally felt that. But additionally, later on, I went as far, as far as I could in the hours we had, to Toxteth and met with community activists - particularly Black Liverpudlians - and just generally I said what we've been doing and, like I said, what do you think about those spaces?

And it was a privilege to get a little bit of insight into their feelings, because I was trying to think not about myself only, like, what do others feel about this? And I have to say, like, there's a lot of resonance with this feeling of mixed emotions and not one particular emotion coming out. Like, we're talking about because that sense of like, our own, like, people from Toxteth in quite leading positions in that museum. So, feeling like a pride and yet also a frustration. I'm not speaking for them, I'm talking about what I received from them and how it made me feel was that thing of a pride in it even existing. Like, that museum, just to get it to exist would have been hard work.

So, to have the people from the black diaspora of Liverpool running part of it, that's quite a big thing. I felt really proud and yet, totally, that sense of contradictory feelings of, yeah, you have to sit, you have to sit with that anger and that upset, 100%.

JOHN

There were several times where you mentioned the community and the importance of museums to communities. And that was really beneficial for me in informing kind of my own ambivalences, because it's all well and good having these sort of like wonderfully detailed, well-designed, well-researched museums and exhibits and displays. But there is a certain level of privilege even that's involved in visiting a museum, right? And the mobility and the availability for you to go to these spaces.

And, you know, there's this discussion about audience - which I'm sure is going to come up a lot over our episodes - there's this idea of, is there, there's still in the back of your mind while you're there, like, this is wonderful, this is a fantastic thing to see. But how is the community of the city that it's being set up in, how are they feeling about it? How are they being impacted by it?

And I think hearing your perspective on that was really, really eye-opening for me, and I really appreciated it, and I'm sure I'd speak for other people as well. It's one of a number of things I'm grateful for in this project, is hearing so many other perspectives on museum spaces. I've learned so much from this.

ZAKI

Did it make you feel anything different or more relating it back to Scotland and places we've been in Glasgow? Did it make you feel different from that, thinking about it in your own context?

JOHN

It definitely did. It's definitely opened up for me that sort of level of analysis to think about these sort of things and where the focus is going. It's something that I find myself - I've been to a few museums since we were there, just to kind of reflect on how I was feeling and to do some other research - and I find myself thinking those things the whole time. I'm kind of like, well, where is the link to the community?

Where is, you know, the people that are being represented here, do they have a voice in this space? Do they have a role in what's being shown? And I find myself now kind of seeking out that information, and I don't know if I would have done otherwise.

JOHN

Is there an idea, as people who have researched history or have a very deep interest in history, and Fara, I know you don't study history, but you have that really deep interest and desire to learn about it, and obviously, Zaki, you're doing a PhD in history.

I wonder if this tension, this tension of capture was something that we talked about quite a lot, which was like how we feel about things being here. It's obviously to our benefit to be able to see them and engage with them, but I think for a lot of us, an ideal endpoint would be that these things are kind of reunited with their communities. And I wonder how much that comes up for the two of you just in your own time visiting museums.

Or even when you're there just to kind of like relax and unwind for something, do you find yourself kind of touching on those issues, even when you're not actively trying to?

ZAKI

Maybe this is too much about my personal politics, but I'd say, because I'm like, many of us, like a global citizen, I've got many homes. I often think it'd be different if it was, if I was someone who was born and raised and fell from a very particular place in the so-called third world or so-called global South and then coming here. Because I'm British-Sudanese, born and raised in Britain and then been in Scotland for almost 20 years, like I think I'm really, this relates to ambivalence.

I think the idea that these items are captured, brought, some people say donated, gifted, to these museums and coming with family from parts of the world where museums on the African continent are being totally, particularly in Sudan right now, like demolished, then actually there's such a benefit. Again, that sense of privilege, there's such a benefit to be able to see materials. And also like, I'll never lie about this, initial moments of excitement that you can find something related to like - what this is here?!

Like, you know, that definitely reverberates. When you go back home: oh, I went to see this, like that reverberates, there's a little bit of excitement in the mix until it dawns on you, like, how it came there and also why it's still there. And even having, because I've worked in museums with young people for quite a while as a youth worker, even conversations with young people and young adults who say, like, I'm not sure whether I think it should be returned. And then us having a conversation about rights to repatriation and also benefits to heritage sectors in other countries being kind of not wealthy and needing a programme of being made wealthy to be able to look after items and use them in a full programme.

So, it's yeah, a complete mix, complete mix. I know politically committed to, like we're on this journey together, I was like, repatriation should be part of the conversation, but restitution is more important to me. But at the same time going like, I'm bloody lucky to be able to step out my door and in 20 minutes cycle pretty much anywhere in Edinburgh, or Glasgow, I can see materials from my kind of family's hometown, like that's pretty special as well as terrible.

JOHN

Yeah, absolutely. I understand what you mean.

ZAKI

No, I was going to say, what are you thinking, Fara?

FARA

I think that resonates to me as well. I guess I would also call myself a global citizen because I've grown up in a lot of different parts of the world. But then I think like, because it is a bit conflicting and confusing on what to do with these objects, but then I think the bare minimum that museums should, actions they should be taking is to be very transparent about where it came from. Are they in conversation with where it originally came from, with communities that it belongs to originally?

I think, and that's also very interesting to me as a person, that also there's then a story attached to the object. I'm not, it kind of brings the object alive, and so, like, if there's like a piece of clothing that I'm seeing or I know that someone's once put that on, that's very personal. And it's a bit, it's a bit horrible to know that like someone once had that on. It's like a very personal item and then it's on display for like millions of people like centuries later. I don't know, that makes me feel a bit weird. But, if there was true transparency and context about that object, then I think that would help me entering museum spaces.

As to what I think should happen to those objects, yeah, it's confusing, because I feel very privileged to be able to interact with these, and I probably would never have had the opportunity to do that otherwise. But then I think as long as I know that there is a larger conversation around it, that would make me feel a bit better, but then should… do I need to feel better? I don't know, that's also weird - like, you know what I mean? Like, it's not about me.

JOHN

I think this idea on, it's a really interesting point that you raised, Fara, about kind of clarity, how visible museums make it, the history of collections and how material comes to be. Because I think that can affect ambivalent feelings in both directions. I mean, I've definitely felt that myself. Something like the Hunterian Museum, for example, where there's been a lot of work done into the collectors, where the collections come from, who these people were, how the material came to be at the museum, if there's any kind of ongoing repatriation attempts to that - I really appreciated that, going around there and seeing those things were open. In another instance, I've been to museums where there is no information about the collections.

There is no information about how the items came into possession of the museum, even how they're catalogued. There is absolutely nothing. And in both instances, I get this ambivalent feeling, because I'm sort of like, well, it's incredible what's been created in these spaces, but if you're not telling me anything about how the objects are here, I'm going to assume the worst, right? I'm going to assume that you don't want to talk about it. That's why there's no information.

So, I spend the whole time thinking about how the objects got there and not about the actual objects themselves, and then within a museum institution that's very open about it, I find myself constantly going back to that. To a certain point, there's a level where I can't enjoy an object because I'm thinking so much about where it came from. And that's a good thing. It's definitely a good ambivalent emotion to feel - but either end of that spectrum can affect, can cause conflicting emotion, I think. So, it's a really interesting, really good point to raise.

ZAKI

I was going to add as well, like, you know when you've been on something exciting or new or privileged and you share it with whoever your people are, however you define that. Also that bit of like, you know, we're sitting in Scotland where there's been a national consultation about a new museum, like national consultation about this empire, slavery in Scotland's museums. And actually, a lot of people I know are like, meh, not because they don't think it's important, but like museums, I don't really spend too much time in them.

So, when you say, what is a museum? What do you think is? It’s like, chill out. There's more urgent issues going on - do you know what I mean? - in my life. It’s just that I think of like, so in my circles I'd be seen as the museum geek, and I'm okay with that. Like, I'm happy to geek out around museums and education, but it's just interesting. And also the other part of ambivalence, which is some people just have never had either the opportunity, interest, or anything reflective interest for them.

So, they're kind of also that bit of ambivalence of like, it's not a part of my world, and it's this thing these people made, I don't really know what it is. So, yeah, I was just going to say there's a flip side of that as well, which is lots of information, or no information, it's inside somewhere, in institutions which lots of people are on the outside of.

ZANDRA

Thanks for listening to The Emotional Museum podcast. This episode was brought to you by The Emotional Museum, with The Hunterian at University of Glasgow.